Transcription of interview conducted by telephone on 21 November 2014. Parts of this interview were used in Farthing, A. & Priego, E., (2016). ÔGraphic MedicineÕ as a Mental Health Information Resource: Insights from Comics Producers. The Comics Grid. 6(0), p.3. DOI: http://doi.org/10.16995/cg.74


BARBARA BLOOMFIELD, THERAPIST AND AUTHOR OF THE GRAPHIC NOVEL COUPLE THERAPY

WHAT INFLUENCED YOU TO CHOOSE COMICS AS A FORM FOR COUPLE THERAPY?
Well I'm a visual thinker, and I've always been very interested in multiple intelligences, and in people's preferred learning styles. I felt that the psychotherapy approach Ð which is kind of lie back and talk, and I'll listen and maybe interject Ð I didn't feel it was right for lots of people, and I'm more interested in creative therapy. And that includes drawing, painting, role play, using plasticine, and playing, basically. So then I saw Phillipa Perry's book, Couch Fiction. It was actually the first comic novel about counselling, or about psychotherapy. I thought it was intriguing, and I did enjoy her book very much, and I quite like the way she keeps going, and going, and going. Even though, to me, it was a bit of a generic case, in the sense that it was following an almost clichŽd psychotherapy line, in terms of the understanding of where her client's problems lay. 

I took the idea, really, and I decided to do it for couple and family counselling. So that was the real influence on it. But I've been a scriptwriter in the past, so I've always loved drama, and I always loved visual learning. I'm interested in film making as well, and animation. ÊSo all of that comes together, it was quite natural for me to turn this into a visual format.

VISUAL AIDS SEEM TO HAVE HAD A ROLE IN SOME AREAS OF PSYCHOLOGY AND PSYCHOTHERAPY
That's true, and there's a huge movement in counselling, moving away from the couch, if you like, and moving into creative techniques in therapy. The whole world is moving culturally, or at least the western world is moving culturally, to a visual learning style. So I'm really into that, it's got a lot to do with that. So it's not surprising that people, young people particularly, respond really well to visual stimuli.

WHAT DID YOU FIND MOST SURPRISING OR CHALLENGING ABOUT CREATING THE BOOK?
I suppose there was a tension between the dramatic, what I saw as the dramatic needs of the stories, and the actual process of counselling, which is very slow. Well it should be very slow anyway, because really counselling is about, you say something, and then I as the counsellor would say, ÔWhat do you mean by that?Õ And then you'd say something else, and I'd say, ÔSo tell me more about thatÕ. So really, counselling is like layers and layers of meaning being peeled back, I suppose, that's one way of contextualising it. But drama is not like that really. Drama is an external state, often, and visual drama is externally driven by events. I wanted to make it entertaining, because I wanted to try and draw in the lay reader, the person, well, like me 20 years ago. I was a journalist and I was a writer, and I was attracted to becoming a couples counsellor, and I kept being attracted to it. And that's the kind of person I wanted to attract Ð somebody whoÕs attracted to counselling.

DID YOU LOOK AT ANY OTHER GRAPHIC WORKS WHILE YOU MADE COUPLE THERAPY?
A little bit, beause my two daughters are very much involved with that kind of scene, and they're in their early 20s. So yes, I did go and have a look, I can't tell you the names of much really. I've seen a couple of animations at the cinema, I can't actually name them. But you know, I'm kind of interested in animation anyway. ÊBut graphic novels, no not really, no. ÊLike a lot of people, and this is what I've found a problem in terms of selling the book, lots of people say, ÔComic novel, no not for me, I don't want to read that!Õ But I had to get round that, I know that's not a younger way of looking at it, but for anyone over 30, they seem rather suspicious of comics really. I think I'm a little bit ahead of the game in some ways. I mean, in other ways there might have been things I'd have done differently. 

WHAT HAS THE RESPONSE FROM THERAPISTS AND TRAINEES?
I had some very nice positive feedback. But I had a review in quite a prestigious journal, and it was rather damningÉ no, it was faintly praising, if you know what I mean. It was like, oh what a sweet idea, but isn't it all a bit shallow. And that really pissed me off actually, because to me, visuals hold and create such a lot of meaning, and such a lot of questions. I look at a picture and immediately it generates lots and lots of ideas, in a way that words don't. When a client draws a picture, immediately lots of new meanings come in. But this person that did this review, honestly, didnÕt get that at all. So I wrote back to the journal, quite a long critique, and I said, you missed the point. The point about this is that some people are visual learners, and therapists would do well to recognise these people and actually work with them in a different way. However, a friend of mine, who's a psychoanalytical psychotherapist Ð very senior, very serious Ð I asked her what she thought of my book. And she said, ÔI was afraid you'd ask me that. Well it was rather silly, wasn't it?Õ And that really annoyed me as well! ÊAnd I said, ÔWell you just don't get what I was trying to do, do you?Õ And maybe there's learning in that, maybe I would have done it slightly differently. Because people can't see past the drawings sometimes. Therapists want a whole shovel load of theory put into everything. ÊSo I think it makes them look more important. But, if I'd wanted to have more impact, maybe I would have shovelled in a bit more theory.

HAVE YOU HAD ANY SORT OF CONCRETE INTEREST FROM COURSES, OR ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS?
Yes, basically I think it's been used to attract people into courses, which teach people to become therapists or family therapists. It was quite smart of me to bring in Professor Rudi Dallos as a sort of adviser. And he was really nice, really helpful, really nice. Because he's got kind of an international Êreputation, which I don't have! And so I brought him in because I thought that might attract more people who are on courses, to do family therapy. ÊAnd I think that's worked, yeah it's worked to some extent. And, yes, it has been used in some reading lists.

The problem with the courses is that they don't tell you anything about working in the room. I've trained counsellors as well, so I know it can be frightening when you get in the room because you realise how ill prepared you are. The courses are very academic, and so they'll teach you about coordinated management of meaning, and Maturana, domains of production Ð but they don't actually teach you what to say to clients in the room. So my attempt was to kind of offer something to the learner something practical. ÊAnd also some question points really. ÊWhat I was hoping to do was to raise a forum for discussion about what counsellors do in the room. And to that extent, it was quite successful. ÊEspecially on Amazon, I got quite a lot of interesting reviews, one of which said, this would not be my way of working, but it's an interesting way of working. I get people brushing each other's hair in my counselling room, because I think people need to use their bodies. So if it's appropriate and they want to do it, I get them to brush each other's hair because often they're physically detached from each other, they're not getting on so they're not affectionate. So brushing each other's hair is such Êa lovely thing to do, and I showed that in the book. And a couple of people said to me, wow that's a bit far out! ÊYou know, I'd never get anyone doing that. But I do, because that's the way that I work. I was quite pleased to be able to show my methods.

WAS THERE ANY BIG DIFFERENCES IN PRODUCTION BETWEEN COUPLE THERAPY AND YOUR OTHER BOOKS?
I'm not really aware of the detail. I worked with an illustrator, and he had illustrated one of their other books, and he was good to work with. It wasn't how I would have done it myself, had I been able to illustrate. I was hoping for a bit more of a trendy style, you know, with current fashions around comics and illustrations, so as to attract that segment of potential buyers. But to answer your question...no, I wasn't really aware of differences in the editorial process. Only that we had to have an unusual shape for the book, which was almost square, I think. And that was to make a better frame for the pictures.

SO THE ILLUSTRATOR, CHRIS RADLEY, DID THE OPEN UNIVERSITY PROVIDE HIM?
Yes, they did. ÊAnd that was fine, and we got on great. ÊI liked working with him, he was very thoughtful, and he was very visually driven, obviously. But I was quite intrigued by the way that he thought, and the way that he described a character, visually, in two dimensions, you know. Well I wear Crocs quite a lot, and he got that, and he had me in Crocs in every blooming frame of that book! ÊAnd I don't know if I wanted to do that, but he did. But that was fine. He was able to show a character, visually, very well, and that was something that I really enjoyed learning about. And it's quite a hard thing to do, and he worked so hard. But I suppose, if it had been my choice, I would probably have chosen somebody younger and try to get it into a much more of a kind of modern looking illustrations.

IS THAT THE PERIL OF WORKING WITH AN ACADEMIC PUBLISHER THEN, MAYBE?
No, I mean it's all about money. I mean, there's a little bit Ð this has been translated into several languages, which is quite interesting. And presumably, they get money when they sell the rights, which is maybe where the money comes from. But it's so hard to sell books at the moment. Unless they are hitting some niche market, it's really tough. 
Lots of people are paying to have their books published, and selling about 15 copies. I know plenty of people who have published their own books, costing about £1,000, and one of them has sold about 15 copies, I think. So the whole publishing world is really changing so much.

HAVE YOU EVER USED COMIC STRIPS IN A THERAPEUTIC SITUATION?
Funnily enough, we're about to use them tomorrow, because I'm doing a training course tomorrow about working with clients where there might be Asperger's or autism. And one visual technique that we use with neuro-atypical clients, especially where an Asperger's, or an autistic type person is in a relationship with a neurotypical person, is we use visual comic strips to talk about conversations. Because people with Asperger's are not always very good at having conversations. They're good at having monologues, they're good at downloading information, but they're not very good at conversing with their partners. So yeah, I was just copying this material for tomorrow, it's called Comic Strip Conversations, and it's a well known technique, working with that kind of problem.

I've become very interested in Asperger's, and especially about Asperger's and neuro typical people coming into relationships. ÊAnd that sort of plays to all these interests that I've told you about, the visual learning. I think that this is just the beginning of a massive upsurge in interest about people with Asperger's. It's a bit taboo to talk openly about somebody having Asperger's. It's almost like they've got some kind of hideous mental health problem, and actually it's pretty normal. It's very common, very common indeed, we see it all the time in counselling. ÊPeople just don't understand each other, they just don't understand how the other person thinks. ÊSo I think comics and visual material of that kind is going to be absolutely invaluable. I think it's on the up!

DO COMICS HAVE ANY OTHER TEACHING VALUES BEYOND DEPICTING WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN A THERAPY SESSION?
I think the question of tone is really important, as a therapist. Because lots of therapists, or therapy, has been predicated on the idea that it's all about misery, and it's all about unhappiness. And of course, that's right in some ways, but the question of tone is vitally important. I do a lot of counselling with people where thereÕs domestic abuse in the relationship. And I don't say to them Ð let's say it's Êa man Ð I don't say, ÔYou are an abusive man, you've got to go and get help, we can't work with you.Õ Instead IÕd say, ÔCongratulations for coming here. How brave are you to come here and tell me, and talk about the ways in which you have got into trouble with abuse.Õ So I hope that, as a teaching aid, it might have presented a way that a therapist could be quite positive. Maybe I came over as a bit too maternal, I think that is my problem really, I come over as nicey, nicey mummy figure a bit. But I work with so many counsellors who think they have to go in there and tell people off really, be a sort of critical mother figure. And you don't have to be like that, you can take up all sorts of different personas as a therapist. 

And I think most people don't want to be treated to a medical model, they don't want to feel that they're going to a doctor, or some kind of so-called specialist, or somebody who knows so much more than they do. I think most people nowadays hate that kind of elitism, and they just want somebody who's going to be practical, and treat them as an equal, and democratic. So I see myself as on a bit of a political mission! I know that might not come across at all, but to me these things are all bound up. So you know, to be a left wing feminist is to be democratic, and to try and level the playing field, as a helper Ð rather than thinking of myself as some kind of expert. You're exposing the secrets of the counselling room. ÊBecause quite a lot of professions have been shrouded in mystery. ÊI'll give you a good example: where I work in Relate, the sex therapists won't tell you anything about what they do, because they want to keep the power to themselves. And they're quite honest about it. But actually, politically, that's not very fair, and it's not very therapeutic. Because other counsellors who are not sex therapists need to know a little bit about what goes on in sex therapy in order to sell it to people, in order to suggest that it's a good idea. This whole elitist way of working with colleagues is going out of the window, I hope. ÊAnd it's being replaced by a more democratic, more level playing field way of working, which I hope I did exemplify.

DID YOU CONSIDER HAVING EXCHANGES BETWEEN YOU AND PROFESSOR DALLOS AS A COMIC STRIP TOO?
Yes. It was a question of the number of pages. That would have been good, I think, actually that's a really good point, it would have been great. It wouldn't have been very interesting because we just sat at my kitchen table and had a conversation. ÊI was really scared because I thought he was going to be quite, ermÉ critical, I suppose. But actually, he couldn't have been nicer, he was absolutely fabulous. And yes, it would have been good to do that, but we didn't have enough pages. ÊBut if I was doing it again, I might lose one story, I might lose the last story, and go more deeply into each of the other two stories. I think that would have been good. ÊAlthough whether it would have been as fun to read, I don't know. Because it is important to make it enjoyable. ÊWhen I go to do workshops, my creative writing workshops, and I put some books out to sell, I find it quite hard to sell that one. Because (a) it's a bit more expensive than the others, and (b) people look and they see pictures, and it's a real turn off for some. I think they don't know what to make of it, they think it's for children. ÊSo I have noticed that. So if there had been more comic strip stuff in it, I don't know if it would have helped sales. 

DID IT EVER MAKE IT INTO COMIC SHOPS?
I took it to a comic shop, linked to my kids, somewhere that they go. And they had a quick look at it, but they weren't interested. ÊAnd I think it was, I'm guessing, because they looked at the pictures and they thought they weren't cool enough. Now I might be wrong about that...or it could be because it Êwas about counselling and they thought, that's not very cool! That's the only thing I tried to do. ÊI vaguely thought about going to book fairs or things like that, but honestly, there's only so many hours in the day, isn't there?

DO YOU SELL BOOKS AT WORKSHOPS YOU CONDUCT?
I do a lot of workshops, and so do sell quite a lot of books. ÊBut Couple Therapy I find hard to sell. It's, harder to interest people in it, because it's quite a lot of money and people look at it and they think it's a comic, like The Beano or something. ÊAnybody over 35 looks at that and they think, ÔOh it's The Beano, why is it £14.99?Õ Or even if I'm selling it at a discount, sell it for £11, or £10, and they still think it's a lot of money to pay for a copy of The Beano. I suppose the thing is, in order to attract people, the visual style of a graphic novel has to be very attractive. I think the cover is really attractive, but I'm not sure if the pictures are sufficiently attractive to make people want to buy it for the visuals. They're buying something that is them, that is part of their visual enjoyment, I suppose. ÊSo yeah, I do think that was a bit of a problem. Ê

I use cards to prompt people writing and talking and I commissioned some little paintings from somebody, and I had a similar experience. I had a very clear idea in my mind of what I wanted, but I didn't really realise that this guy wouldn't be able to do that, and that he wanted to do what he liked doing. So I suppose I didn't really understand fully the complexities of working with an illustrator. ÊIf you can't draw yourself, like me, you have to give up your own images. In any collaboration, you have to give something, I guess, you have to compromise.You have to try and work together to make the collaboration bigger than two individuals. And what this guy produced was great, the visuals that he did produce were lovely, but they weren't really what I wanted. And actually, I haven't found them that useful in my work, because I suppose I don't love them in the way that I perhaps might have loved something else. I suppose there's a link in my mind there with the drawings in Couple Therapy. ÊI like them, they're nice drawings, I think it is a good job, but I don't love them.

It's a thing about style and substance: can something be incredibly stylish and also have a lot of substance? Yes, I think it can. ÊIf something is stylish, and just looks amazing, is visually extraordinary, does that really help teaching counsellors? it doesn't Ð but I might have sold a few more books, and I might have got a few more reviews!

DO YOU THINK YOUÕLL DO ANOTHER COMIC OR ILLUSTRATED BOOK?
Yes. ÊI'm helping somebody at the moment with some visual creative techniques, and then I'm doing a book, which is also for Open University Press, and it's going to be an online format. Again, it's about creative counselling really, and I'm laying out all my techniques.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOUÕD LIKE TO ADD?
I don't think I made enough of the way that when you work in metaphor, and pictures are metaphors, they are rounding up something, which is much bigger than the picture. They are enabling the viewer to lay meaning onto, make their own meanings. But when you work in metaphor, in a therapeutic way, you get very deep, very quickly. But you do it in a safe way, because you're putting it in the realm of story. I think this is the way that counselling is going, we will be working in story. ÊStory is such a big word nowadays, anyway, and it annoys the hell out of me, on adverts, when they talk about the story - your train journey, your story. It's not a story, it's just a train journey! You know, it's almost a clichŽ now that everything's got to be a story. However, this is how people are thinking, and that's why it's important, brining story into therapy. I'm just scratching the surface here, but there's so many reasons why story is healing.

ENDS