Transcription of interview conducted by telephone on 21 November 2014. Parts of this interview were used in Farthing, A. & Priego, E., (2016). ÔGraphic MedicineÕ as a Mental Health Information Resource: Insights from Comics Producers. The Comics Grid. 6(0), p.3. DOI: http://doi.org/10.16995/cg.74


JONATHAN RIGBY, CO-OWNER OF PAGE 45 COMICS SHOP IN NOTTINGHAM

HOW MUCH INTEREST IS THERE IN THE SHOPÕS LIBRARY SERVICE FROM HIGHER EDUCATION AND UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES?
The library business is an interesting one Ð around five years ago, it was predominantly public libraries that ordered from us. ÊThen as the recession hit, that seemed to dry up, and I wonder whether a lot of those buy direct from book stockists now. ÊThe majority of the business we do now is school libraries. ÊSo obviously, not necessarily as large an order, but they obviously appreciate the extra value we can add to an order, in terms of advising them what will fly off their shelves. ÊIn terms of higher education and university libraries, weÕve had relatively little, if any. ÊWe have contacted them via mail shots a couple of times, but whether it's something that's just not particularly stocked, I don't honestly know. We have a couple of customers who are academics, including an English professor, who teaches various graphic novels as part of his course. ÊBut even he says that perhaps the graphic novel medium isn't necessarily highly regarded within academia. ÊSo I don't actually know how much graphic novel material, comics material, is stocked by higher education or university libraries.

HOW DOES YOUR INTERACTION WITH LOCAL SCHOOLS WORK?
When someone gets in touch with us, they either know exactly what they want and they Ôd like to know whether we can supply it, or they want some advice. ÊAnd that is either age suitability, or just advice, full stop, because they're not necessarily familiar with the medium. ÊSo in that case, weÕd get a rough idea what their budget is, and we'd try to provide a mix of material Ð various fiction, usually some Manga, a little bit of superheroes, to sort of provide a good spread of things that we know will get booked out by the boys and girls.

DO YOU PROVIDE MANY FACTUAL COMICS?
We do try. You've got to be aware that the librarians want kids to book the stuff out. ÊThere is some factual material, definitely, things like Persepolis, which probably quite a few librarians might be aware of. ÊSo there are certainly things you can include.

ARE THERE ANY BARRIERS THAT CURRENTLY PREVENT COMICS BEING USED IN HIGHER EDUCATION SETTINGS, AND IS THERE ANYTHING THAT PUBLISHERS CAN DO TO OVERCOME THEM?
It's not necessarily even a prejudice within higher education settings per se. ÊJust probably more one that exists within English-speaking countries, regarding comics generally. I don't know what it's like with respect to, say, libraries and university libraries in France and Spain Ð it would be very interesting to know actually. ÊI would suspect theyÕd have considerably more material stocked. ÊBecause the difference there is, comics are regarded, by the public at large, as just another form of literature. ÊWhereas, in the US and UK, we had the unfortunate scenario, just immediately after World War Two, where superheroes became so popular - they subsumed the comics' medium, from the public perception. ÊAnd so you have this ridiculous scenario now where Marvel and DC get 95 per cent of the publicity, and really publish about five per cent of the material. So it's not necessarily a barrier that's set within higher education. ÊI think it's just that it's equally as prevalent there as it is among the public at large. 

Now, we do have, as I said earlier, professors who are actively teaching the books. We've one who's recently published a book on Alan Moore and William Blake. ÊAnd also, we've got a history prof who's recently done something in conjunction with a creator, regarding the era around 300 and the Spartans. ÊI suppose creators and publishers could actively look for those sort of opportunities. ÊBut then they might feel that there would be a relatively low reward versus time input, to actively pursue. ÊIf those things arrive then great, but I think they're just initially more interested in catching the public at large. ÊSo I think it almost needs to come the other way really, from those within higher education, who have an interest in the medium, promoting it to their colleagues.

CAN YOU BRIEFLY DESCRIBE ANY RECENT TRENDS, BOTH IN TERMS OF VOLUME, ECONOMICS, ART STYLES AND THEMES, IN SMALL PRESS AND SELF-PUBLISHING?
I think, you certainly see more and more small press and self-publishing, than ever before. ÊWe get more submissions for things for us to stock. ÊI think that also just reflects the medium as a whole. ÊBecause, compared to 20 years ago, there's vastly more material available, from publishers full stop. There's so much more by orders of magnitude. ÊAs the general public perception increases within the English-speaking countries regarding the validity of the medium. ÊHence, films like Tamara Drewe, when people go, ÔOh OK, so that was based on a comic? Alright, and it was published in ÊThe Guardian?Õ So that kind of helps. ÊAnd also, to an extent, even things like all the Marvel films, it's getting kids into comics that weren't previously. ÊThey are fun, I mean a lot of people who buy what we regard as the real mainstream stuff Ð contemporary fiction of every genre, the non fictional material, the biographies the travelogues, et cetera Ð many have some superheroes as well. ÊThey, in turn, are infinitely better written than they were 20 years ago, because a lot of them are written by a published prose novelists now. ÊSo I think, just across the whole spectrum of comics, we're certainly seeing an ever-improving quality of writing, particularly. ÊI think the art's always been good. 

But in terms of small press, self-publishing, you're certainly seeing far more people doing it. ÊAnd I think you're also seeing, smaller boutique publishers, setting up, people like Avery Hill Publishing. People who have been in the industry for a little period of time, realising that it does make things easier if you act together. And so you're getting these sort of small-press publishing sets. But yeah, I think from our perspective, it's difficult to know what not to stock sometimes. ÊAnd the nice thing is, even if you turn somebody down from stocking their stuff, chances are they'll come back with something in a year or two years that's going to sell.

IS THE DRIVE FROM SMALL PRESS COMING FROM PEOPLE PUTTING THEIR WORK ONLINE FIRST?
There are certainly people doing that. ÊA lot of these people who are self-publishing, ultimately want to get published by someone. ÊAnd I think there's a perception now that, as much as anything, for a publisher to take you on, they've got to be as certain in you as they are in the material. ÊSo, for example, publishers like Image, when they decide whether they're going to run with a title, they're also looking at what presence the creators have online and on social media. ÊThey want the creators to do as much of the promotion of the book as possible.

I think in that sense, again, it's not just small press and small publishing, you know, it's the whole industry, outside of the sort of the juggernaut of the big two Ð Marvel and DC, and the superhero stuff. ÊBut I think publishers are just going to look to creators more and more to try and make the connection with the potential readers, and promote the book themselves. ÊBut then creators should want to do that anyway. I think unless you're somebody who's cripplingly shy, you want to be trying to sort of promote your book in any way possible.

THE COMICS WORLD SEEMS TO BE AN INDUSTRY WITH ENTHUSIASTS AR EVERY LEVEL Ð IS THAT A FAIR DESCRIPTION?
That's true. ÊI was going to say nobody got rich on comic retail, but some people have. But by and large, it is about a passion. ÊI can't think of any other sort of medium where it's possible for the fans to get so close to the creators Ð be it on social media, or at festivals like The Lakes Comic Art Festival in Kendall and Thought Bubble in Leeds. ÊI think it's fun for the creators too. It's an opportunity for them to get feedback directly from people that are passionate about what they do.

HOW WILL SMALL PRESS AND INDEPENDENT COMICS PUBLISHING DEVELOP IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE?
Avery Hill is a good example. The nice thing for us is, we have very high confidence that pretty much everything they put out will be of excellent quality. ÊAnd I suppose, even just taking it up slightly a level, publishers like Nobrow Ð youÕre almost a hundred per cent certain that what they put out is going to be fantastic. ÊSo that that helps us, that there's a tier of curation going on in smaller press, more boutique publishing material. ÊIt makes it easier for us to keep on top of whatÕs coming out.

DOES PERCEIVED CONFIDENCE IN A PUBLISHER HAVE ANY BEARING ON DISTRIBUTION?
It would probably be a question you would have to ask them. ÊThe difficulty they have is that a lot of that material isn't necessarily distributed by Diamond. If you're distributed by Diamond, it's very easy to know what your print run should be, because you can base it on what all the preview orders are. ÊBut for people who aren't distributed by Diamond, it obviously a little bit more a gut instinct. ÊBut I think that if you're confident enough to be that sort of publisher, you've got confidence in your ability to pick material anyway. ÊAnd the extension of that is, you know, what your print runs are. ÊBut they're never going to be massive, so to some extent, it probably wouldn't necessarily make a massive difference whether you print 200 or 500. If something works, you're probably going to go back to print anyway. ÊYou're never going to print 5,000.

YOUÕVE EMBRACED DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION WITH THE COMIXOLOGY STOREFRONT. BUT WHAT CHANGES DO YOU FORESEE FOR DIGITAL COMICS IN THE FUTURE?
Digital comics have, to a certain extent, turned out to be a bit of a white elephant. ÊI think everybody got a little bit panicky a few years ago. ÊBut as far as I am aware, theyÕre currently less than five per cent of the total market in the US, and of that five per cent, the vast majority of it is single-issue comics, superhero material. ÊI think it's partly because obviously it's still such a touchy-feely medium. ÊI also would be intrigued to know of the digital purchases, how many of them have actually replaced paper purchases. ÊAnd I suspect the answer is not a hundred per cent. We have quite a few customers who buy the odd bit of digital, but still buy the majority of stuff on paper. ÊAnd they sometimes buy digital stuff if they just think, oh I want to give that a try but I'm not sure about it. ÊI think you'll certainly see more people doing online things and web comics, but whether that will lend itself to a digital distribution, I don't know. ÊI think it's going to end up being part of the mix. Ê

I think there's also a sense that it'll take a generational change as well, as the current generation of comics readers aren't massively fussed about digital. ÊAnd maybe that's something that in the future will just be different. ÊBut then, on the other hand, there's an element with comics, especially with the superhero stuff, that it is about collecting. And to collect something, you need something you can have in your hand. ÊSo I don't know, I don't see any massive paradigm shift in the immediate future, or even the medium future, but you can't say for definite. Ê

I know it's not quite the same, but you get into the sort of argument about piracy, with music more than comics. ÊBut you know, when music record execs talk about how many billions of pounds worth of revenue they've lost through people illegally downloading, my contention is, yeah but what percentage of those downloads were people actually going to buy? ÊRelatively few, in my opinion. ÊSo actually, what have you actually lost? ÊAnd are people now actually aware, more aware of creators? Yeah, I think they are. ÊAnd I'm quite sure with like the vast majority of illegal downloads, especially in music; I bet half of it isn't even listened to more than once. I know Marvel are trying to do some things with additional digital content. ÊI've no idea how successful they're being with it, in terms of driving people to actually look at it. It still feels a bit low key to me. ÊI think it's a legitimate channel, it's just I don't see anything massively changing, at the moment with digital distribution.

WOULD FUNCTIONAL TEXTBOOK-LIKE COMICS HAVE A PLACE IN YOUR SHOP, AND DO YOU STOCK ANYTHING LIKE THAT ALREADY?
Yes, we do, and it would be nice if there were more. ÊAnd I can actually see a way, especially for the classroom, where actually digital distribution of those might be ideal. ÊI'll give you three examples: Nobrow have just published one that is maybe a little bit on the boutiquey side, called Neurocomic, a beautiful cover but that was very interesting. And then there's two by the Cannon Bros Ð ÊEvolution, the Story of Life On Earth, and The Stuff of Life, a graphic guide to genetics and DNA Ð and both of them are illustrated by Zander Cannon and Kevin Cannon, although they have different writers. ÊTheyÕre aimed at junior school audience and they're really good, they do explain both subjects in quite substantial detail. ÊBut they definitely turn it into fun as well. ÊSo I think in that respect, anywhere you can make education more entertaining, you've certainly got potential for engaging those who were reluctant to engage with it before. Ê

Again, I'd be interested whether there's considerably more of that type of material in France, et cetera. ÊBut yeah, there's certainly room for more material like that. ÊWe sell a fair amount of those books anyway, just because they're just interesting, and people who read comics are always willing to have a little look at something different, or interesting, that makes things like that fun. But whenever you're trying to satisfy two quite different markets, you know, at the same time, it's difficult. ÊYou could almost argue there needs to be a version with a different cover, that would be more aimed at looking a bit more like a formal textbook. ÊBut then, on the other hand, my question would be: would that actually get a kid at school to look inside it? Whereas, if it actually looks like what it is, which is something that's fun, then somebody is far more likely to actually have a look at it.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL BOOKS THAT DEAL WITH HEALTH AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES PUBLISHED IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, DO YOU EVER SEE THE SHOP HAVING A SEPARATE SECTION FOR THESE ÔGRAPHIC MEDICINEÕ BOOKS?
Well they are certainly collected together. I mean, it's very difficult for a comic shop to know how to group the books.ÊIn a bookshop like Waterstones, if everything is by and large written by one writer, you can arrange it by author. ÊObviously, they have the sort of genre subsections. ÊBut with comics, it's much more kind of difficult to pigeonhole material. ÊTake something like Persepolis Ð would you put it in an autobiographical section, or would you put it in politics? We do try to collate likeminded material together as much as we can, so you could argue there is almost a little sort of mini section for that already. ÊBut IÕm certainly aware that as a sub genre, it's definitely growing, without a shadow of a doubt. 

It's very interesting how it really has become a bit of a phenomena in its own right. And they have quite a few conferences, and it's interesting how they believe that there's room to educate people within their sphere, both patients and doctors, with this type of material. ÊAnd for whatever reason, I don't know whether it's because a lot of this material clearly has a lot of work and effort put into it. ÊSo theyÕre almost valid, scientific research, or presentation of case studies, if you like, that people are naturally a bit more accepting of it, you know, of the validity of it. 
If you've done something that is effectively a study, whether it's autobiographical or not, on the nature of depression, what you've really done is presented a case study. It might be quite a subjective case study, but I think a lot of medical professionals would see the validity of reading something like that alongside just dry, statistical facts. ÊYou can learn as much from reading about one person's battle with depression, as you can from reading an entire textbook about depression. ÊI mean, for example, Depresso by Brick, was very interesting and a very brave presentation of his struggle and how he was very much determined not to go down the medication route. And what was fascinating was his battles with the medical professionals. I think there would be a lot medical professionals could learn from reading what is effectively a patient's eye view of what it's like to suffer in this way. ÊHe is opening himself up, in his own time and space, in a way it's nigh on impossible to do in 15 minutes in a doctor's consultation room. ÊOr even opening himself up in a way that he would find it difficult to do talking to a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, who's trying to diagnose him. ÊWhereas he would take the view that if you're looking at somebody's story, that's a far more holistic approach.

ENDS