Transcription of interview conducted in person on 19 December 2014. Parts of this interview were used in Farthing, A. & Priego, E., (2016). ŌGraphic MedicineÕ as a Mental Health Information Resource: Insights from Comics Producers. The Comics Grid. 6(0), p.3. DOI: http://doi.org/10.16995/cg.74 DR MEG-JOHN BARKER, SENIOR LECTURER IN PSYCHOLOGY WITH OPEN UNIVERSITY, THERAPIST, WRITER AND COMICS CREATOR DO YOU USE COMICS IN TEACHING? ItÕs sort of interesting at the Open University where I teach, because it isnÕt like your standard teaching. We produce modules that people do online, so mostly itÕs writing either textbook material or web-based material. So I guess we do use cartoons quite a lot, more in a breaking up the text and illustrating things humorously kind of way. I have to say that I havenÕt used comics as such a lot in the teaching, but just this week I was talking to the people at Open University Š thereÕs a lot of courses that people can come and do and sign up for, like a regular university, but they also do public-facing material Š so little modules that anyone can do for free. And for that, we were talking about doing something around relationship therapy, and we were wondering if a web comic medium would be a really nice way of getting across the different kinds of relationship therapy or relationship therapy for different issues. ŹSo itÕs in the pipeline really, rather than having happened yet. IÕve used some of my comics to illustrate the odd thing, but yeah, I havenÕt really got into using them in teaching yet, but I think it would be nice to do, definitely. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY COMICS THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE USEFUL? In terms of the mental health experience, what IÕm finding is the autobiographical comics are so good at capturing the lived experience, and sometimes the diversity of experiences of the same issue. So that would be the kind of thing IÕd be thinking to use with therapy students and potentially just psychology students more broadly actually, because I think thereÕs just something about how a comic gets that across that is so authentic and people can really think themselves into it in a way that may be a bit different from someone talking on a video. ŹThereÕs something about the Ōsequential-nessÕ and the Ōart-nessÕ of it. For example, it would be great to get three or four of the really good comic depictions of peopleÕs depression together. ŹIndeed, if you look on social media, people have even started doing this. You get these Š I donÕt know if theyÕre BuzzFeed or something like that, but itÕs like 10 depictions of depression in comics, 10 depictions of anxiety, and those give you that sense of Š ŌAh, itÕs quite different for different people, actually.Õ ŹAnd they do that Š you really do get that sense of what itÕs like from the inside a bit more, I think. I think Hyperbole and a Half by Allie Brosh would be my favourite that IÕve read. I mean, it just Š it floors me. ŹIt makes me laugh so much, and at the same time itÕs just such an incredible depiction of depression. I guess some of the autobiographical accounts, in a way where they fall down slightly is having to give lots of reasons and having to tell this narrative through the depression, where something healed them or whatever. You donÕt really get that with Hyperbole and a Half Š itÕs a bit like, ŌWell, I donÕt know really why it happened, and I donÕt really know why it sort of stops happening, and the medical bit was a bit important but it wasnÕt everything.Õ And itÕs just a much more nuanced kind of account, really, even though itÕs one of the simplest accounts, in a way. I avoided it for ages because, when I saw the drawings, it kind of linked in my mind to the kind of 1970 punky and alternative comics, which never really appealed to me. But when I read it, I was, again, astonished by how something without this great art going on was actually really affecting. The expressions on the charactersÕ faces are just somehow [laughs] Š I canÕt put it into words, but it just gets you on a gut level, doesnÕt it? DO YOU USE COMICS OR DRAWINGS WHEN YOU PRACTISE AS A THERAPIST? I havenÕt used them with clients. One of the things I do thatÕs part of my practitioner role is writing self-help materials and writing for practitioners, and thatÕs where IÕve used them. ŹSo first of all, I did my self-help book, Rewriting the Rules, and I included, I think, one comic in that one Š maybe a couple. And then when I did a book about mindfulness for therapists [Mindful Counselling And Psychotherapy], I actually included a comic every chapter. They were from a retreat that I went on, and I did a comic every day of the retreat, and then I wasnÕt really planning to include them anywhere, but I just thought, ŌActually...Õ In the mindfulness book, I just wanted to get across the reality of what meditation and things are like, and it was hard to describe that in the text, so I used the comics to really challenge the idea that this is a blissful, wonderful, easy thing to do, that just easily makes people better. ThereÕs a kind of Ōmindfulness TMÕ going on at the moment Š like it just solves everything and itÕs dead easy. But I think the comics helped really illustrate some of the challenges and really hard parts of doing that. HAVE YOU HAD ANY FEEDBACK ABOUT THE COMICS IN THE BOOK? Yeah, people really like it Š everyone has basically commented ŌI love those Š they really helped.Õ ŹSo again, it may be that therapists might use those with clients when theyÕre describing it, as a kind of ŌThis is what to expect.Õ ThereÕs one IÕve just got with me sitting, and itÕs got all the thoughts that are going in my head, and all around the person, and I think it gives quite a good sense of what happens in your thinking, when youÕre really struggling to keep going back to the present moment. Another comic I did for that retreat was, IÕd just been washing up in the kitchen Š it was a silent retreat Š and so the person who was drying held this plate out to show that I wasnÕt washing up very well. And somehow this had been a real shameful moment for me, and I couldnÕt say anything, couldnÕt articulate anything in that moment. And then, when we were sitting meditating after that, I just felt this real sense of all these memories just popping into my head, one after another, of times when IÕd felt that kind of shame in the past. ŹAnd that one I illustrated with almost chains all around my body, like the pain that I was feeling, sitting for so long, really linked in with the pain of these memories Š almost like a ghost lugging the chains around. You canÕt really describe that, but youÕve got these little Š it was all these little images in the bubbles of moments of piercing shame that had been felt that all came to mind in that instant, which is why meditation is not easy. Ź[Laughs] WHAT HAS THE REACTION BEEN FROM FELLOW ACADEMICS OR THERAPIST COLLEAGUES ABOUT THE COMICS? I think only that, as IÕve said, that sense of people finding theyÕre quite a visceral and real explanation, in a way that words arenÕt always Š and also you can get the sequential thing in a way. I suppose its part of a wider project for me, research-wise, of visual methods. So something IÕve been doing a lot in my research is trying to encourage research participants to capture their experiences visually, and weÕve used all kinds of media for that Š weÕve used collage and plasticise and Lego modelling, but also comics, people writing their own comics. And so I think that broad area is seen in a mixed way by other academics. So it is seen as a bit silly and childish in some ways, but itÕs also Š people are beginning to cotton on Š I mean, the reason we started doing that for research was actually to cut through the standard narratives that people tell, and maybe thatÕs another thing it does in relation to mental health. ŹIÕve more been looking at sexual and gender identities that way. If you interview someone whoÕs trans or whoÕs bisexual or asexual or whatever group youÕre interested in, you often find that they will tell a narrative thatÕs very rehearsed about why they are the way they are and justifying, because theyÕve had to do it so many times, especially people who are trans who have had to access services. But in general, people have quite a rehearsed narrative about their sexuality if itÕs not a normative sexuality, and what weÕve found with visual methods is that people tell a very different story once theyÕve made a collage or drawn a comic of some aspect of their experience. ŹSo I think itÕs incredibly valuable from that point of view, and I guess the same thing may be true for mental health Š if you ask people to draw a comic illustrating a mental health experience, you may not get the same rehearsed ŌThis is why IÕve got this and this is the help that I needÕ kind of narrative. You might get something very different about the, probably the quite embodied, lived experience of what itÕs like being in that moment Š which is a different quality. YOU HAVENÕT USED FILM OR VIDEO IN THE PROJECT? Yeah, we havenÕt done. ŹWeÕve mostly been encouraging participants to create their own artworks, and there are lots of bigger projects that other people are doing along similar lines. Like in Brighton, Katherine Johnson has been getting, I think itÕs LGBT people who are struggling with mental health stuff, particularly around self-harm and suicide, to create photographs and then do an exhibition. ŹBut I think comics would lend themselves again really nicely to that. ŹWith comics, itÕs just about getting through the idea of people thinking they have to make great art. ŹSo I think I tend to show some of my own and XKCD and Hyperbole and a Half, to really get across to people that you can use a stick figure Š it doesnÕt have to be this amazing artistic endeavour. And also, actually, if you just look at any of the comic artistsÕ early stuff, you realise actually they were doing these kind of amazing comics before they really developed the really beautiful style that theyÕve got today. Even some of Alison BechdelÕs really early stuff is fairly basic, so you think, ŌYeah, maybe it doesnÕt have to be...Õ ŹObviously, her recent stuff is just gobsmackingly amazing. ARE YOU GOING TO USE COMICS MORE? I would like to. The limiting factor with comics is just obviously how long they take. So I do a lot of blogging about the kind of comics that I write about, which is mindfulness, mental health, gender, sexuality, relationships. IÕd love to do more comics. In a way, like the XKCD thing, I think IÕd like to use a lot more, sort of more diagrams Š sometimes those are more a diagram, rather than a comic as such. IÕm really interested in using more visual, because there are some people that the written word just doesnÕt get to, and I think it would be really nice to use more visual plus written word, and even some of the stuff thatÕs visual alone. So IÕve got quite a lot of ideas about how that might work, but itÕs that fact that itÕs more time-consuming Š for me, itÕs easier to just rush out 2000 words on a topic than it is to actually sit down and think ŌHow would I illustrate this visually?Õ But then it goes with the mindfulness as well, because for me, I think in a way, doing a comic of something can be a more therapeutic practice personally, because it makes me slow down. So recently, I was thinking back through my life quite a lot, and I was thinking about the clothes I wore at different times in my life, and I was thinking to myself, ŌI wish IÕd kept hold of some of those clothes,Õ because you could make a patchwork quilt out of all the different clothes youÕd had at different times, and what an amazing thing that would be. And I had a moment of sadness at not having kept hold of everything. ŹAnd then I thought of a comic Š I can draw this patchwork quilt, and so I did that and it felt brilliant. There was something Š I canÕt really describe it but it felt really good to capture, and I drew the quilt, but then also did arrows of pictures of images of myself wearing some of the clothes and little explanations about what some of the materials were and things like that. So thatÕs what IÕve kind of done recently, is just to do a few one-off bits and pieces like that, really just for me, as a way of slowing down and attending to my own life Š almost like a form of self-care. ŹAnd again, like the mindfulness ones, it may end up being something at some point or not. In a very overproductive world, I think it is quite valuable sometimes just to let yourself do something like that, just for the pure pleasure of it, rather than having this endpoint of ŌOK, this is for something.Õ And I tend to do comics for cards for people Š so again, itÕs got that relational aspect to it as well. WHAT COMICS DO YOU READ, EITHER FOR PLEASURE OR FOR PROFESSIONAL PURPOSES? I guess I got into comics back when I was at uni, because I had a partner at the time who was into them, but I didnÕt really know much about them before that, other than that I used to read The Beano as a kid and then I used to read girlsÕ comics, because my mum used to read them and she got me those. So IÕd read all of them, but not really got into the graphic novels and the real kind of proper comics that we have today. So, initially I would say Sandman [by Neil Gaiman] was probably one of the main things I got into, and Strangers in Paradise [by Terry Moore] around that time. So there was some quite interesting stuff around sexuality and gender, which obviously appealed. And now IÕm mostly reading the kind of mental health-related ones, because thatÕs what excites me. So recently Š I mean, IÕve read everything by Alison Bechdel, so sheÕs really a big influence, and I would get everything she wrote. And IÕve read Marbles [by Ellen Forney] and Hyperbole and a Half [by Allie Brosh] and The Bad Doctor [by Ian Williams], and IÕm still gradually collecting together other ones as I find out about them. I like some of the well-known graphic novels Š Maus [by Art Speigelman] and things like that. IÕm just trying to think if IÕve left anyone out. I really like The Tale of One Bad Rat by Bryan Talbot. That was one of my early ones Š IÕve got a big poster for that on my wall, and I contacted Bryan for the Asylum special issue, and he could not have been more friendly. Sometimes you contact someone and you hear back from their agent two months later or something. He was like Š just him, straightaway, over email Š ŌSure Š youÕre welcome to use my stuff. ŹHereÕs an interview you can use. HereÕs some of the pictures you can use.Õ THE COMICS WORLD DOES SEEM A HELPFUL AND SUPPORTIVE PLACE. COULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR EXPERIENCES OF INTERACTING WITH THE COMICS COMMUNITY THROUGH THE ASYLUM MAGAZINE PROJECT? Certainly from the Asylum special issue, the whole thing was just this incredibly positive project. ŹSo Helen [Spandler], my friend, is one of the editors for Asylum, and weÕd been talking for a while about the magazine and whether I could contribute anything. And I was sort of saying, ŌYou know, I do comics about my mental health stuff and about my experiences as a therapist sometimes.Õ And then I said, ŌYou know that would make a great special issue Š there must be other people who do that.Õ And I mentioned a few of the ones I was aware of, and then it kind of got left, because I had so many other things on, and then I got together with Joseph [De Lappe] and Caroline [Walters], one after the other, who IÕd mentioned this to, and theyÕd been really interested. And then when we put out the call for submissions, we were just inundated, and it was Š it was like everyone from the real celebrity comic authors who just got back to us and said, ŌAbsolutely. You can use our stuff,Õ just really friendly, all the way to people who were readers of Asylum, who had been reading it for years, but never thought of submitting their comics until now. And then loads of academics who thought this was a great opportunity to write something a bit different from what they might write for an academic publication about their passion for comics and mental health. ŹSo what we ended up doing was, weÕre going to take over the whole of next year, so itÕs not just going to be one special issue. WeÕre going to start with one special issue, but then weÕre having special features in the other three issues that year, because weÕve just got so much stuff. So it was just an overwhelming and positive response, really. But I donÕt feel like an insider in this world, by any means. ItÕs always been Š I suppose itÕs because itÕs one of those geeky kind of things that people who are passionate about comics are so into it that they will be able to reel off all the authors, and have really in-depth knowledge, whereas for me, IÕm just a broad brush kind of person. IÕm also quite into a number of other things so, in a way, none of the things IÕm into can I ever have that degree of expertise on. ŹSo I do feel kind of like a reverence for the people who are really into comics. Ź[Laughs] ŹBut as you say, itÕs generally a friendly bunch. At the Nine Worlds GeekFest, we also did a workshop on comics Š again, getting people to talk about their experiences, and that was a fabulous response, too. They do it, yeah, every year, and I tend to do a few workshops and things at it, but the comics ones have been particularly popular, and we just do them like a Ōshow and tellÕ. So we did queer comics the first year Š people just brought all their favourites and talked about them, and then we did the mental health one this year. But what you always get is somebody who really knows the history, and of course the history of queer comics is really interesting Š of all the characters before it was OK, who were kind of coded that way and people read them that way, and Batman and Robin or whatever. And then the mental health was similar Š it was sort of like, really interesting early examples that I didnÕt know about, and also all of the stuff about how mad and bad have been kind of equated in the supervillains, who are often seen as crazy and evil Š and where are the distinctions there? DO YOU GO TO COMICS CONVENTIONS OR FAIRS? Nine Worlds is the main thing, and I went to WorldCon [World Science Fiction Convention] that they had Š so more broadly geek conferences rather than specific comic ones. But, yeah, I might go to some now Š I went to something when I was over in the States actually, that was a comics-only one, and that was really interesting. But I guess IÕm not quite interested in mainstream comics, in reading loads of superhero comics or whatever, so when I went to the one in the States, there wasnÕt that many stands that I was really interested in. ŹIÕm really interested in the memoirs Š I think that would be my favourite genre of comic. ŹSo if they had a comic convention that was more on that side of things, then I would definitely be interested. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF MEMOIR MATERIAL PRODUCED BY SELF-PUBLISHED CREATORS. HAVE YOU SEEN A LOT OF THAT? I havenÕt much, but I have now met a few people via the things that IÕve been to, whoÕve sent me their stuff Š and yeah, again, it would be really good to, because thereÕs just amazing things out there. Like Sina [ Shamsavari], who was at the event we were both at [Transitions 5 comics symposium], sent me his stuff afterwards, and I just loved it Š just these little comic zines and stuff. And again, it really helps your own Š reading his stuff made me think, ŌWow Š I could do so much more, actually.Õ I mean, heÕs a brilliant artist, but again, it gives you that idea that there are some fairly simple things you can do that are really effective. HAS WORKING ON ASYLUM GIVEN YOU ANY INSIGHTS INTO HOW COMICS CAN BE USED DIFFERENTLY AROUND MENTAL HEALTH? I think one of the things that prompted us to do Asylum was feeling that a lot of the Š even the memoir comics that have come out recently have Š a lot of them have been quite medical model. There have been variations of it, but itÕs often this kind of narrative of Š ŌHere are my experiences Š getting increasingly crazy Š and then hereÕs me realising itÕs an illness and finding the right drugs and then being better.Õ And given IÕm quite critical around mental health stuff, I kind of thought thereÕs scope for something different. So when I was doing the Asylum stuff Š because itÕs quite a critical mental health survivor of psychiatric systems kind of magazine, we were getting people being more critical and giving more social accounts of their mental health stuff. And I think that was a really nice thing to see that there were other kinds of accounts you could tell Š or maybe just not always the simple recovery narrative of ŌI was bad and now IÕm better because of drugs or because of therapyÕ Š but rather, how mental health stuff can be ongoing through a personÕs life, and can play out in different ways at different times, and maybe thatÕs OK. ŹAnd then it got me thinking towards the end as well, though Š maybe part of the problem was because I was classifying quite a small, narrow band of comics as mental health comics, because if you think about it, a comic like Maus is actually about mental health in its broader sense Š it is about the effect of trauma through generations. ŹSo actually, when you broaden out the scope, a lot of those comics now that are about experiences of war or discrimination or being a refugee or that kind of thing Š you could argue those are mental health comics that are much more about the social rather than the medical or biological. ŹSo yeah, it kind of did give me that insight of maybe I should cast the net wider when IÕm thinking about mental health in comics. IN OUR LIBRARY, APART FROM SOME ILLUSTRATED BOOKS FROM THE ŌÉFOR BEGINNERSÕ AND ŌINTRODUCINGÉÕ SERIES, WE ONLY HAD COUCH FICTION BY PHILIPPA PERRY. BUT WHEN ADDING BOOKS TO THE COLLECTION FOR THIS PROJECT, I PUT IN ITEMS SUCH AS MAUS FOR THE REASONS YOU OUTLINED. I think about some of the memoirs I used to read. There were a couple of them, like Chester Brown did this one in The Playboy and then Š who was that other bloke who wrote It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken Š Seth [pseudonym of Gregory Gallant]. I mean, I remember reading those early on as comic memoirs and loving them, because I love that kind of memoir format. But again, looking back on those, itÕs like theyÕre about growing up, learning about masculinity and the things that these people struggle with. So just because theyÕre not talking about ŌIÕve got depression,Õ or ŌIÕve got anxiety,Õ Š they do start to fuzz the boundaries between whatÕs a mental health memoir and whatÕs just a memoir, because they deal with mental health-related issues, they deal with struggles and relationships and that kind of thing. And going back to Couch Fiction, I suppose for me, that one IÕm not so madly keen on, because again, the other thing I like with the Asylum special issue is this breaking down the barriers between the therapists and the professionals and the clients or patients, and I felt like the problem with that one is that it is quite Ōus and themÕ Š perhaps because itÕs psychodynamic particularly Š the therapist having these insights into the client, although you do hear about her own process as well in there. But yeah, I think I like ones that question. And thatÕs what IÕve tried to do with my own, is to really challenge that Š the idea that the professional doesnÕt have any mental health issues and the client has loads and is really problematic and needs this expert to cure them Š I donÕt like that narrative. [Laughs] ŹSo I think comics can be a good place to break that down a bit. DURING MY RESEARCH SO FAR, THERE OFTEN SEEMS TO BE AN ASSUMPTION THAT USING COMICS IN A MENTAL-HEALTH CONTEXT IS BEST SUITED TO WORKING WITH CHILDREN. DO YOU THINK THATÕS THE CASE? But itÕs so relevant for adults. I mean, partly whatÕs prompted me about doing it more is thinking Š thereÕs a few people in my life who I really want to read my stuff, but actually they just, as people who struggle with big, long bits of text. Whether theyÕre actually dyslexic or someone on the spectrum Š itÕs just like they canÕt pick up one of my books and read it. I want to share my ideas with them Š I want to hear what they think of them, and theyÕre never going to read one of my blogs, because I always write far too much, and they always say to me Š ŅCan you edit it into 500 words?Ó But thereÕs lots of adults who do not engage well with massive written texts, or even quite, fairly short bits of text. ENDS